eat this, IE



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Posted by: stak
Posted on: 2005-03-16 10:32:03

it should be interesting to see if this challenge actually makes a difference to microsoft. i, for one, hope they stop disintegrating the web with their disregard for open standards.

Posted by Crypto at 2005-03-22 12:03:31
They can do whatever they deem more profitable.
I hope they comply with standards though,but really they've decided a lot of standards in the past.
but seriously
they make up 95% of the Browser market, who should really be determining the standard?
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Posted by stak at 2005-03-22 12:17:38
so you're in favour of monopolies determining standards? that's not cool, yo.
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Posted by Crypto at 2005-03-22 19:39:49
I'm in favor of generating the best product for people.
So seriously, a business can conform with what 95% of the world uses or not.
MS develops what they want and use it.
They're not going out of the way to hurt developers, they're just using their style for sites. Other sites seem to cater to the 3% of other browsers. What's the point in that?
I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. Other sites should really just conform to MS's standards instead of making critcism of it as they're probably just wasting their time.

Honestly, I think the general plan in MS is not to screw over others, it's just that it does.
I'm rapidly learning about this from watching the WoW community. Given a forum to complain, everyone will.

Actually the MMO world emulates teh Linux vs. Windows world pretty well
Windows comes out, everyone flocks to it, but there's a solid 5% who hate it and complain about it as much as possible. So they decide to do something about it and form their own free one (GuildWars is a new MMO that's free) and all those who play it love it, but carefully ignore the fact that the graphics are not as nice, not as easy to use, but dammit, they can do more with it.

So yes, MS offers their OS for money, and yes their are flaws with it. But that cost goes into the fact that Windows offers so much more the Linux.
Both in MMO's and OS's, you get the same thing, no company can do things so that EVERYONE agrees...
And don't say Linux has that, because clearly 95% of the world is still using Windows :)

This is not a knock at OSS, It's a crack at Linux. I think OSS is a great idea. I really do, but there are limits to it.
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Posted by stak at 2005-03-23 09:24:08
I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. Other sites should really just conform to MS's standards instead of making critcism of it as they're probably just wasting their time.

Worst! If it's not right, it should be fixed. Don't just ignore the problem. Conforming to MS's "standards" just reinforces their attitude that they own the world and can do whatever they want with it.

Honestly, I think the general plan in MS is not to screw over others, it's just that it does.

On an individual developer basis, no, I don't think they're trying to screw over others. However, from an upper management point of view, they definitely are. That's how they (and most big companies these days) make money. It's just far more noticeable in MS than in other companies because they are so huge and control so much of the market. They are not the only company that does this, but they are the biggest fish and as such will be the first target.

I agree that Linux isn't perfect. And it's not for the average person. MS does provide some really good things that make their software easy-to-use and popular, but that doesn't change the fact that they are exploiting this to screw over others.
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Posted by Crypto at 2005-03-24 18:26:22
I still don't think it's an intentional screw over.
I think it's a question of "why should we". They're not losing customers by not switching, they are losing customers from not having the "best" product.
but wait till IE 7 comes out. 6 came out what, 2-3 years ago. I forsee big changes in IE 7.
Like, I know going there that I will be working rediculous hours, that they hire very strictly and that they have 28k people there. Do the math and you can see that it's safe to assume that their next round of products will be huge
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Posted by stak at 2005-03-24 22:38:25
have you learnt nothing from SE 362? them having 28k people working ridiculous hours doesn't mean squat.

and about IE.. after IE 6 was released, they explicitly said that they were not going to release another version because there was nothing else that could be added. talk about lack of innovation. as i told you in class, now that firefox and other browsers are starting to eat their market share, they are regretting their earlier decisions to stop browser development and to ignore web standards. the very fact that they are developing IE 7 is an admission to that. now they see the answer to the "why should we" question - the answer is that they are losing customers, and they will continue do so unless they fix their problems.
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Posted by Crypto at 2005-03-26 11:49:55
That's valid :)
I would wait to see what they actually do though.
Yes, it was a lack of innovation. really, the Web was still just an infant and there is so much to capitalize on there. They should have been developing.

Also, they apparently are extremely efficient there. No MMM conflicts I don't believe but I honestly will look at it when I'm there and judge.

I don't think it's the standards though that's hurting them, I think it's the innovations inside of firefox and Opera. They made some big leaps and bounds on it and I think that MS should at least be able to match some of their features.
Don't be like Buhr about them though. He's so consumed by hatred for them that you can see it when someone mentions there name.
It's a company, a very profitable one, and one that really brought the PC to the mass market. They deserve at least that.

I still don't believe software should be free unless people want it to be. When I dev something, I like reward for my work. I feel pride that I've completed it, but pride doesn't fill our bellies.

I don't want to sound like I entered SE for money, because I honestly don't value money. I don't want to be rich and famous, it's not my goal. My goal is to be happy and if what makes me happy, makes me rich, then so be it, but I'd be perfectly content just designing software at some company.

They are a business though, and they want money, so they are competitive.
What happens if IE 7 is absolutely amazing (not saying it will be, but imagine it is), that it's a big of a jump as 98 was to xp. That it no longer crashes, that it no longer has security holes, that it is extremely useable. and that it has some big thing on top of it that really really tops everything else. and it complies to every web standard out there.
Say it feels like opera to you.
Would you then switch?
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Posted by stak at 2005-03-27 03:57:36
why do i always drag myself into these conversations? argh.

It's a company, a very profitable one

yeah, so?

one that really brought the PC to the mass market. They deserve at least that.

fair enough.

I still don't believe software should be free unless people want it to be.

I thought we were arguing about IE's crappiness, not OSS. That's a whole different debate.

They are a business though, and they want money, so they are competitive.

Guess what? There are two ways of making money. The right way. And the wrong way. Just because they want money doesn't mean they are competitive. In fact, I don't think anybody can successfully argue that they are competitive. Every time they've faced competition, they've either undersold or bought out the competition. Since that doesn't work against free-software browsers, they're being forced to fight on technical merit. Free-software browsers are forcing them to be competitive.

And sure, I expect IE 7 to have a crapload of new and nifty features. Lots of people will switch back to IE because of it. For a while. Then it'll stagnate again. Once they get their market share back up a bit, they won't care about innovation and all that other baloney, just about making their pile of cash bigger and grow faster. Other browsers will leap ahead and then the whole cycle will begin again.

And no, I wouldn't switch. Mostly because they will never release a version for Linux, and I don't really want to run Windows.
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Posted by Crypto at 2005-03-28 20:32:40
Hey, you like this debate, don't you?

If not we can stop. We both know that we won't convince either of the side's arguments.

So we can stop now if you want to ....

But my argument to the middle paragraph is "IE is free" I've never paid for it, I paid for an OS. I also didn't pay for a Media player, instant messenger, email client, and a large selection of other things. And yes, I did buy my copy of Windows legally.
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Posted by stak at 2005-03-28 20:50:47
well, it's stress-testing the nested reply on my website, if nothing else. i just added a new feature to scroll down to the comment you're replying to when you click the [reply to this] link. :)

and i think you misunderstood what i meant by "free-software". i was referring to free as in freedom, not free as in beer. my point is that they cannot buy out mozilla because there is nothing there they can buy. the source is available to everyone, and even if they hired off the lead developers, other people would take their place.
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